Curse

Shadowmoon · Jan 03, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

getting a lvl 1 to a grind spot is the hard part of survivor, but that has been made extremely easy, seeing the instant lvl 20 buff in gwen, and dwarf boxing. Survivor is a grind title, whoever is saying it isn't is drinking some major cool-aid. If you don't beleive, then you don't read these forums much. There are tons of methods listed on these forums, most require repeative play, ie grind.
If you want to grade how difficult a title is, you have to judge it using the most easily to obtain method. just because you gimp yourself by not using these methods, doesn't make the title in general harder to get.

Mr. Diggles · Jan 03, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

/signed
I would hate to have to restart my character that I have had since Prophecies beta.

TaCktiX · Jan 03, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Which is what makes these two titles the most unique and interesting out of the entire lot. Heck, Survivor is probably the best title solely because it is achievable simply by playing the game - no extra grind involved at all. For a game that was built around eliminating grind, Survivor is the one title that fits in that purpose out of all the current options.

Psst...people still grind for it in the most efficient manner they can. I can count on one hand how many people I know who did zero XP farming for the title (actually, it's only one, but apparently I don't associate much with Survivor-type people).

Quote:

I too have survived things like lag, bad PUGs, and even total screwups on my part just to have my butt saved in the nick of time. Another reason why this title is so special - you must have a bit of luck involved, as well as skill.

If I remember correctly, we've already got Lucky/Unlucky titles. I don't think a title supposedly based on skill at playing the game and evaluating situations properly should have any elements of luck. Just as you had some really sweet luck, scads more people had really horrible un-luck. They had to restart or give up, while your providential luck kept you going. I think you've invalidated your own point by putting that in the post.

Quote:

And even with that knowledge in mind, long before the title came into being, and ever since thereafter, I have not changed the way I have played the game. I still play each and every character to survive each and every encounter I take them on, regardless of the number of deaths they currently have, because in the end, dying equates failure in this game, whether there be a tangible result of the death or not. Many people have always played that way, and had no need of any "incentive" like a title not to play that way. I currently have three perma-pre characters that I have no intention of bringing to Post. I still play these characters with zero deaths and will continue to do so even though I have no shot at getting Survivor for them. Why? Because of that challenge of completing the entirety of Pre-Searing without dying once is challenge enough - the title is entirely inconsequential. The same with mapping with the characters. There is no Pre-Cartographer title, yet I still will clear the entirety of the map (with the exception being the Academy of course), simply because that is how I (and many others) have always played the game.

So people should change the way they play the game in a game that might as well be champion of the Burger King phrase "Have it your way"? For a lot of people, myself included, after you die once, it's rather pointless to keep on trying not to die when you've already missed your shot at the title. No sense barring ourselves from more risky but more rewarding play purely so we can stay single-digit on the death counter.

Quote:

On another point, some players will never have the chance at the Legendary titles simply because they do not own all three campaigns. Surely they should not be penalized simply because they cannot afford to buy all three games, or because they do not like the mechanics of one game in particular. Certainly, taking this into consideration, shouldn't the Legendary titles be changed to allow these players the ability to complete them? And should not the Vanquisher title be changed to allow those who vanquish in normal mode to also get the title?

Survivor is core to all campaigns. Legendary titles are "sum it all up" titles that reward people who have put the $150 in for all three campaigns. Vanquisher is acceptably a title purely because it's not easy to kill everything in Hard Mode for some folks. This "point" of yours is a non-point entirely.

Quote:

And just because it does not say zero, it should mean a player ought to have the opportunity to share a title with a player who achieved that feat with a counter that does say zero. The Survivor title is not simply a means of checkmarking the accumulation of a certain amount of XP, it is the means of someone showing that they took a new Level 1 character and played through the game in whatever means they enjoyed most and did so without that character dying once. And that is a slightly greater feat than taking any current Level 20 and farming/grinding for one million XP.

And is there anything 99% of the people who get Legendary Survivor do that's different from farming/grinding for one million XP? NO! Precious few people just play the game as it is. They trick out their Level 5 Elementalists with Savannah Heat, Liquid Flame, and Meteor Shower (yeah, that's my ele I'm talking about), then proceed to pwn everything in Ascalonian sight. That in many many ways is EASIER than the Level 20 who's stuck fighting Level 20 or higher enemies just to get a decent XP return. This point has been argued before, and I will reference to previous posts for better explanations.

MithranArkanere · Jan 03, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Yeah. We have already proven that is awesomely easy to new characters, yet for old ones, specially those that were created in Prophecies, were dying in pre-Searing had no know consequences.

The only problem left is people getting both survivor and LdoA, and I bet they can make so getting one prevents getting the other, just like now getting one death prevents getting survivor.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 03, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

Psst...people still grind for it in the most efficient manner they can. I can count on one hand how many people I know who did zero XP farming for the title (actually, it's only one, but apparently I don't associate much with Survivor-type people).

This is the one title I can think of off the top of my head that does not require grinding to achieve the maximum level. You can get this title simply by playing through the campaigns "as intented." Just because players commonly use grinding methods to farm for this title does not make it a grinding required title. You can add me to the list of those who do not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

If I remember correctly, we've already got Lucky/Unlucky titles. I don't think a title supposedly based on skill at playing the game and evaluating situations properly should have any elements of luck. Just as you had some really sweet luck, scads more people had really horrible un-luck. They had to restart or give up, while your providential luck kept you going. I think you've invalidated your own point by putting that in the post.

I don't think so. Nothing in the title description says that luck isn't or shouldn't be a part of getting it. Just like in any other part of this game, there is a certain amount of luck involved in deciding success or failure. Skill alone is not the determining factor - in PvE or PvP. No matter where you go or what you do, luck still plays a role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

So people should change the way they play the game in a game that might as well be champion of the Burger King phrase "Have it your way"? For a lot of people, myself included, after you die once, it's rather pointless to keep on trying not to die when you've already missed your shot at the title. No sense barring ourselves from more risky but more rewarding play purely so we can stay single-digit on the death counter.

I never said that anyone should change the way they play. I am all for GW allowing many modes of game play that people enjoy. However, take a look at any number of different threads, and you will find that this is not always the case. Far to often players may be limited in what they can do based on their method of play. It is fair? I don't necessarily think so, but I do realize that there are certain things that I can and can't achieve based on my method of playing. I will never max out the skill hunter tracks. I probably will never get the Guardian or Vanquisher tracks, and it's highly doubtful I will get anywhere significant in the PvP tracks. That's what makes any game challenging and fun - the fact that not everyone can do it, or do it well. If everyone could do it, then what would be the point? Any accomplishment would be meaningless.

Personally speaking, and this is not directed at you or any other person, but just a general statement. If any one needs a title to have any incentive not to die in any game - then what's the point of playing? Why is it necessary to need a title to avoid failing at any part of this game? Death is a failure in any RPG, just because GW has negated any penalty for it (outside of losing the title), what is the point in playing if you don't care whether you fail or not - no matter how many times you failed beforehand?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

Survivor is core to all campaigns. Legendary titles are "sum it all up" titles that reward people who have put the $150 in for all three campaigns. Vanquisher is acceptably a title purely because it's not easy to kill everything in Hard Mode for some folks. This "point" of yours is a non-point entirely.

But you missed the point I was trying to make. There are four million players - with probably just as many playstyles and ways to enjoy the game. Each one has its benefits and limitations. Some of those limitations, like I mentioned above, is that we may not be able to get everything we want in the game. Just as PvP only characters cannot get PvE only titles, even though at this point in the game, there is no reason to limit PvP only characters to the Arenas, this mechanic still holds true, so a PvP primary player cannot take any of his favorite characters to get Cartographer, Guardian, or similar titles, no matter how much he may want to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

And is there anything 99% of the people who get Legendary Survivor do that's different from farming/grinding for one million XP? NO! Precious few people just play the game as it is. They trick out their Level 5 Elementalists with Savannah Heat, Liquid Flame, and Meteor Shower (yeah, that's my ele I'm talking about), then proceed to pwn everything in Ascalonian sight. That in many many ways is EASIER than the Level 20 who's stuck fighting Level 20 or higher enemies just to get a decent XP return. This point has been argued before, and I will reference to previous posts for better explanations.

There's no argument that there are many different ways to get that million XP - some easier than others. But to paraphrase yourself, how many players fight the level 20 mobs to achieve the title now, when there are much simpler ways to do it. Regardless of how a lower level character goes about it, they have certain limitations for a limited period of time before they can get to the easy farming areas, or access the better skills. From personal experience, I still find it slightly harder to try for the title with a new character than to gather up enough XP with an established character - aside from the EotN low level buff nonsense now.

The bottom line is, Survivor was not meant to be achieved by any character with deaths. That's not the point of the title, and that's not why it was created. There needs to be some distinction between the players who have achieved this title through "normal" means, and those who simply wish to add another notch to their belt. That's why I have no problem with adding another title to the mix - why not have an "Enduring Adventurer" title with the same parameters as "Survivor," but make it mutually exclusive. That way, those who wish to go for Survivor have their ability to do so, and remain separate (yet equal) for those who wish to show a similar accomplishment. Just as we have distinct titles for Normal Mode accomplishments and Hard Mode accomplishments, so we should have for the Survivor title as well.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

TaCktiX · Jan 03, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

I never said that anyone should change the way they play. I am all for GW allowing many modes of game play that people enjoy. However, take a look at any number of different threads, and you will find that this is not always the case. Far to often players may be limited in what they can do based on their method of play. It is fair? I don't necessarily think so, but I do realize that there are certain things that I can and can't achieve based on my method of playing. I will never max out the skill hunter tracks. I probably will never get the Guardian or Vanquisher tracks, and it's highly doubtful I will get anywhere significant in the PvP tracks. That's what makes any game challenging and fun - the fact that not everyone can do it, or do it well. If everyone could do it, then what would be the point? Any accomplishment would be meaningless.

By CHOICE you can decide "hey, I want Guardian of Tyria now on my main character." And you can do it. By CHOICE you can think "well, I'm starting to get bored of charting this map, I'll come back to it later." And you can do it. By CHOICE you can say "ah, I don't want to get the bonus on that mission right yet, I may do it later." And you can do it.

But wait...you can't do that with Survivor. You mess up, you're done, you're through, there is no coming back to try again with that same character, nothing. Consider the illogic of that for a few moments.

wu is me · Jan 03, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

But.. if you make it obtainable again, after a death, then it would REALLY be a grind title.

Besides... if you wanted it for completion for your old characters... would you be against the idea that EVERYBODY gets all the festival hats, regardless of whether or not they were at the event, and get their 3rd year minis at the same time?

PS
Make a title mutually exclusive to survivor/ldoa ftw

Tyla · Jan 03, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

/signed...for people who started without the Survivor title existing at the time.
For people who started their character after the survivor title came, its a /notsigned because they coulda checked wiki

(And yes, i made that very same mistake)

Loviatar · Jan 03, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

/signed...for people who started without the Survivor title existing at the time.
For people who started their character after the survivor title came, its a /notsigned because they coulda checked wiki

(And yes, i made that very same mistake)

FINE............GIVE ME A MINIPET FOR EVERY CHARACTER I DELETED BEFORE MINIPETS WERE ANNOUNCED AS WELL

/NOT SIGNED

Tyla · Jan 03, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

FINE............GIVE ME A MINIPET FOR EVERY CHARACTER I DELETED BEFORE MINIPETS WERE ANNOUNCED AS WELL

The minipets were a year in.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 03, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

By CHOICE you can decide "hey, I want Guardian of Tyria now on my main character." And you can do it. By CHOICE you can think "well, I'm starting to get bored of charting this map, I'll come back to it later." And you can do it. By CHOICE you can say "ah, I don't want to get the bonus on that mission right yet, I may do it later." And you can do it.

But wait...you can't do that with Survivor. You mess up, you're done, you're through, there is no coming back to try again with that same character, nothing. Consider the illogic of that for a few moments.

And here is where the mistaken assumption lies - it is not illogical. This is exactly how the title is supposed to work; this is exactly how the title was designed to work; those are the set parameters given to satisfy the success or failure of getting the title. Just the same with LDoA. Just the way PvP only characters cannot enter PvE areas. There is nothing Illogical about it - it so happens to be a mechanic that some players do not agree with, while others do. What is illogical is that those who disagree with it want the parameters changed to be represent something the title is not, and was not designed to be.

None of my original characters have survivor, even though I played them to be "survivors" by nature of my playstyle. Sure it would have been nice to have that title for them but only insofar as it meant I was able to succeed at playing the game; in other words, I avoided failure by avoiding death. The title itself is meaningless. If the loss of the title is a permanent price I have to pay for the failure I experienced, then big whoop. It's really no skin off my nose, and I don't feel I deserve to have the title for those characters because I did indeed fail.

Quite frankly, I am glad at least there is some sort of permanent result for death in this game, sort of brings back the good ole days of gaming for me when a character's death was a lot more risky and thus avoiding death was a lot more satisfying. I can't wait for that new game in development that has a permanent character death mechanic - that's going to be a helluva exciting feature to finally get back into the RPG genre. I can't count how many times, I have had "beads of sweat" moments when I thought that first death was inevitable for any of my characters, only to experience that great big sigh of relief upon avoiding the death, only to latter experience that pang of guilt and failure when my character finally did die - for whatever reason. It's very rare that a game can evoke such responses from me anymore, and it's one of the reasons why GW is so enjoyable. To remove what Survivor represents is to remove the little danger and challenge that avoiding death now holds.

Again, I ask what is the opposition to leaving Survivor as is and simply create a new title to allow players such as yourself to achieve the same results, but at least keep the distinction between true "Survivors" and the "Choose your time of Survival" characters?

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

TaCktiX · Jan 03, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

"True survivors" is a complete misnomer. The people who do get Legendary Survivor farmed it in some capacity or another, playing the safest play possible for the highest gain possible. If things went sour, they mapped out before anything cruel could happen to their poor character. That's not Surviving, that's being a Coward.

As for the stupid and pathetic comment about "all festival hats," wu, you are completely misunderstanding the context. Festival hats are confirmed to have ZERO Guild Wars 2 benefit. They're for vanity alone, and are well-known for the fact that they don't even add armor bonuses (they explicitly say on them "No Insignia"). That's different from Legendary Survivor and LDoA, which are confirmed to have a benefit in GW2.

As for the suggestion that a "new title" be created, consider that ArenaNet has stated they're not doing any more heavy-duty coding for Guild Wars, at least until GW2 is released. Adding an NPC is very easy, they do it all the time. Adding a brand new statue for the Hall of Monuments just for the sake of differentiating the Cowards from the Second-Shots is a lot of work considering the difference it will make.

So I'm not against a new title having the same effect, but the likelihood of a new title entirely is very low.

MithranArkanere · Jan 04, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

This is exactly how the title is supposed to work; this is exactly how the title was designed to work; those are the set parameters given to satisfy the success or failure of getting the title. Just the same with LDoA. Just the way PvP only characters cannot enter PvE areas. There is nothing Illogical about it - it so happens to be a mechanic that some players do not agree with, while others do. What is illogical is that those who disagree with it want the parameters changed to be represent something the title is not, and was not designed to be.[...]

Past tense.

The evade mechanic WAS designed... then the game changed...
The soul reaping changed many times.
The lucky title changed too.
The wisdom and treasure hunter titles also changed.
Now you can buy more slots.

Change happend. Change must happen. Change should happen.

Change WILL happen.

One way or another.

The design this title was oriented changed. Not it's not the same it was meant to be.

That's why it must be changed.

Change, change, change, change, change... always have some spare.

Oso Minar · Jan 04, 2008, 05:21 AM // 05:21

If nothing else, it will give those of us who play a single character something new to shoot for. I'm not going to delete this character that I've invested so much in for a title. However, if I had the option to go for the title now, I'd certainly give it a shot, and put in as much work and money as required.

Signed for a good gold sink.

Holly Herro · Jan 04, 2008, 05:53 AM // 05:53

I say we all go to the international districts in Temple of Balthazar and start yelling random stuff.

Doomsday is coming, did you bring your coat?

I LIVE IN A GIANT BUCKET

dranne · Jan 04, 2008, 07:04 AM // 07:04

what the op suggested cant work imo. why? because you are changing what the title does: reaching from lvl 1-100 without dying. doesnt matter if what you suggest is harder or easier to do. resetting an old char and creating a new char is not the same thing. when you create a new character, it has nothing. your 3 year old char on the other hand has lots of skills/open areas/titles etc. i know having extra skills/completed missions can mean harder/easier xp gain. it is not about how hard it is or how easy it is. Its about, what it is.

BUT they DO owe to the people who made their chars before LS. What they owe is the chance. Like all the other characters we create have: one chance. How can they do it?

Place a npc in fow/uw

if your char is older than (current date)-(title announcement date) and if you
dont have LS AND LDoA then a dialog box opens saying for example;

"come child, i see that you miss something, something you could have done if you had the chance. i cant change what has happened,the past, but i can change the way it is remembered. First you have to believe otherwise though, and to do that you have to live it through. I can trick your mind to live it through but there are rules, conditions. First, the mind can be tricked only once, there is nothing i can do about it. After the first, mind learns how to counter. Second, if you feel the pain of death, you wake and its over. Third, everything you own here store them somewhere you cant reach, on this "self" for example. If you see your other "self"s belongings its over, you wake. And last, when you are done you can wake by the methods above or you can search for me one more time, i might have a present for you." Accept?

If the player accepts (to be able to accept the player has to have an empty char slot on his account which is locked after the acceptance) the character is stored with all the belongings on him. A lvl 1 new char starts with same name and looks. With this char the player can try to achieve either LS or LDoA. The moment both of them is not achievable the new char is deleted the stored char is loaded. If the player reaches the npc after achieving the title, skills/extra title progressions are added to stored chars r'epertoire. If not only the title.

so, how does this sound?

ps. cant believe i joined the forum to reply to this post, dont i have anything else to do? hmm

TaCktiX · Jan 04, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

But characters who go for Legendary Survivor are not completely empty from the start. Some get runs to max armor spots, others get loads of tomes and put overpowered late-campaign skills at low cost, still others show up in a high-level area by run with scrolls and get a powerlevel up to 20. Nobody has an "untainted" character going for Legendary Survivor, because in a title known for "crap, lag" and "stupid noob" moments, you want the odds tilted in your favor as much as possible. In many earlier said, earlier demonstrated, earlier apparently ignored posts, getting a character from Level 1 to 20 is generally easier than 20 to 100, and by extension x level to 100+x level if the title is made available to people who missed it first shot.

Sparda · Jan 04, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

First of all i did not read all the stuff here but as far as i see it they should make a weekend of the survivor all lvl 20 no survivor chars get another chance.
They start @ lvl 1 survivor (course they are lvl20) when they die in this weekend they just loose it though luck.
Iff manage to become a legendary with in the these days from friday till sunday you may keep it.
yours truly here is gonna Byzzr spank in HM only a 1000/1300 runs for the title.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 04, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

"True survivors" is a complete misnomer. The people who do get Legendary Survivor farmed it in some capacity or another, playing the safest play possible for the highest gain possible. If things went sour, they mapped out before anything cruel could happen to their poor character. That's not Surviving, that's being a Coward.

That is a generalization based on assumptions without all the facts in evidence, and is entirely beside the point anyway. I have already stated I met one player who did not "farm" the title, nor any of the other things you mention. Nor have I, even though it has cost me a shot at the title on two characters in the recent past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

As for the stupid and pathetic comment about "all festival hats," wu, you are completely misunderstanding the context. Festival hats are confirmed to have ZERO Guild Wars 2 benefit. They're for vanity alone, and are well-known for the fact that they don't even add armor bonuses (they explicitly say on them "No Insignia"). That's different from Legendary Survivor and LDoA, which are confirmed to have a benefit in GW2.

I have yet to read or hear anything that states these two specific titles grant benefits for GW2 characters. Even if they should, it has already been stated that any benefits at all granted by the HoM to GW2 characters would be superficial at best - more or less the equivalent of a festival hat for your character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

As for the suggestion that a "new title" be created, consider that ArenaNet has stated they're not doing any more heavy-duty coding for Guild Wars, at least until GW2 is released. Adding an NPC is very easy, they do it all the time. Adding a brand new statue for the Hall of Monuments just for the sake of differentiating the Cowards from the Second-Shots is a lot of work considering the difference it will make.

So I'm not against a new title having the same effect, but the likelihood of a new title entirely is very low.

Actually, it would be much more time consuming and problematic to code a new NPC and the requisite parameters you and others have suggested for the change than to simply add a new title. Therefore, if something was going to be changed, then adding a new title would be the quickest and easiest route for Anet.

And on that note ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Change happend. Change must happen. Change should happen.

Change WILL happen.

One way or another.

The design this title was oriented changed. Not it's not the same it was meant to be.

That's why it must be changed.

Change, change, change, change, change... always have some spare.

Yes, indeed - in fact that is one of the appealing factors for an on-line game. However:

Not everything has changed
Not everything will change
Not everything needs to change
Not everything should change
Change is not always good
Change is not always bad
Change is not always necessary

Sometimes, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Hanok Odbrook
"The true measure of a Man is the ability to look beyond personal desires, and uncover the Truth."
Real Millennium Group Guild

Loviatar · Jan 04, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

Festival hats are confirmed to have ZERO Guild Wars 2 benefit. They're for vanity alone, and are well-known for the fact that they don't even add armor bonuses (they explicitly say on them "No Insignia"). That's different from Legendary Survivor and LDoA, which are confirmed to have a benefit in GW2.

considering that the devs have stated flatly that there will be no emphasize NO player advantage from anything that transfers from the HOM UNLOCKS over a fresh start player.............give us official linkies please

they stated GW1 not required for an even start

linkies???